[BitPim-devel] Yet more Microsoft licensing issues

[Roger Binns]

As some of you may know, BitPim is currently stuck on Python 2.3. This
is for the following 2 reasons:

- - It is the version of Python on MacOS 10.3 and 10.4 and hence Python
doesn't need to be included in the Mac packages
- - On Windows, Python 2.4 and 2.5 are compiled with VC 2003.

VC 2003 has new C runtime libraries which are not shipped as part of
Microsoft operating systems. (The C runtime from VC 6 is shipped with
Windows 98 onwards). Just to make life more interesting, Microsoft
won't let you download VC 2003 any more and point you at VC 2006.

The license for the VC2003 redistributables is incompatible with the
GPL. It basically requires that you restrict your users in a way that
pleases Microsoft and requires you make them agree to a license agreement.

The detail is a clause in the Microsoft redistributable license hat says
"(d) you do not permit further redistribution of the Redistributable
Components by your end-user customers". The GPL is all about allowing
you to redistribute stuff - in fact it can be summed up as "you can
redistribute as long as you don't remove the rights to redistribute from
those you distribute to"

wxPython/wxWidgets have just come out with version 2.8. It appears that
on Windows this now requires a library named gdiplus. Same silly
Microsoft restrictions.

The question is what to do about this? To be frank I'd be quite happy
to drop Windows support. I no longer use it.

We can freeze at current versions of Python and wxPython.

We aren't allowed to include the DLLs as part of the installer, but
could make the installer download them in concert with the user from the
Microsoft web site.

For example users would have to go to this page to get gdiplus:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=6a63ab9c-df12-4d41-933c-be590feaa05a&displaylang=en

To get msvcr71 I think you have to get people to download the .Net 1.1
runtime!

And since VC2003 isn't even obtainable any more, I have no way of
compiling the extensions anyway.

Roger

[Michael C.]

Roger,

Here is my $0.02 on the subject:
1) Dropping Windows support would not be acceptable. Although you may
not use it anymore, many of us use it exclusively, myself included.
2) As far as the "mscvcr71.dll" library, the simple fix appears to be
to install MS Media Player version 9.0 or above. I have not been able
to confirm this finding, but all of my machines that have at least Media
Player 10 (one at MP 10, and two at MP 11), have this DLL loaded
already. Another option is just to list this DLL as a prerequisite, and
let the end user find it.

Again, thank you for such a great tool!

Michael C.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
As some of you may know, BitPim is currently stuck on Python 2.3. This
- - It is the version of Python on MacOS 10.3 and 10.4 and hence Python
doesn't need to be included in the Mac packages
- - On Windows, Python 2.4 and 2.5 are compiled with VC 2003.
VC 2003 has new C runtime libraries which are not shipped as part of
Microsoft operating systems. (The C runtime from VC 6 is shipped with
Windows 98 onwards). Just to make life more interesting, Microsoft
won't let you download VC 2003 any more and point you at VC 2006.
The license for the VC2003 redistributables is incompatible with the
GPL. It basically requires that you restrict your users in a way that
pleases Microsoft and requires you make them agree to a license agreement.
The detail is a clause in the Microsoft redistributable license hat says
"(d) you do not permit further redistribution of the Redistributable
Components by your end-user customers". The GPL is all about allowing
you to redistribute stuff - in fact it can be summed up as "you can
redistribute as long as you don't remove the rights to redistribute from
those you distribute to"
wxPython/wxWidgets have just come out with version 2.8. It appears that
on Windows this now requires a library named gdiplus. Same silly
Microsoft restrictions.
The question is what to do about this? To be frank I'd be quite happy
to drop Windows support. I no longer use it.
We can freeze at current versions of Python and wxPython.
We aren't allowed to include the DLLs as part of the installer, but
could make the installer download them in concert with the user from the
Microsoft web site.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=6a63ab9c-df12-4d41-933c-be590feaa05a&displaylang=en
To get msvcr71 I think you have to get people to download the .Net 1.1
runtime!
And since VC2003 isn't even obtainable any more, I have no way of
compiling the extensions anyway.
Roger
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[·· ħþø ··]

Post by Michael C.
1) Dropping Windows support would not be acceptable. Although you may
not use it anymore, many of us use it exclusively, myself included.

I agree; some of us don't have the option of -not- using Windows, due to
occupational obligations and the like.

Post by Michael C.
2) As far as the "mscvcr71.dll" library, the simple fix appears to be
to install MS Media Player version 9.0 or above. I have not been able
to confirm this finding, but all of my machines that have at least Media
Player 10 (one at MP 10, and two at MP 11), have this DLL loaded
already. Another option is just to list this DLL as a prerequisite, and
let the end user find it.

I'm fine with the "let the user find it themself" approach, but
compiling a list of applications it comes bundled with wouldn't hurt
either. I'm sure one could just google "mscvcr71.dll" and download the
DLL straightaway anyhow.

[Michael C.]

Post by ·· ħþø ··
I'm fine with the "let the user find it themself" approach, but
compiling a list of applications it comes bundled with wouldn't hurt
either. I'm sure one could just google "mscvcr71.dll" and download the
DLL straightaway anyhow.

As one person already noted in another forum, downloading the DLL from
one of the many DLL download sites is illegal. Although anyone can do
it, we should not be condoning or sanctioning it. I do agree we could
compile a list of the most common applications that do distribute the
DLL legally.

Michael C.

[Roger Binns]

·· ħþø ·· wrote:
| Michael C. wrote:
| I agree; some of us don't have the option of -not- using Windows, due to
| occupational obligations and the like.

Note that BitPim is free (as in freedom of speech). That is something
you should be demanding from your computer equipment. You can use
software like VMWare player to run Linux under Windows. There are also
many different LiveCDs out there.

| I'm sure one could just google "mscvcr71.dll" and download the
| DLL straightaway anyhow.

If I was a bad guy, having people download dlls like that from my site
would be a fantastic way of growing a botnet.

Roger

[Roger Binns]

Michael C. wrote:
| 1) Dropping Windows support would not be acceptable. Although you may
| not use it anymore, many of us use it exclusively, myself included.

Note that this would be redistribution of binaries. The source would
still work fine. And you or anyone else is welcome to volunteer to take
over packaging the Windows version with whatever workarounds are needed.

| 2) As far as the "mscvcr71.dll" library, the simple fix appears to be
| to install MS Media Player version 9.0 or above.

There are multiple versions of the vc71 dlls, and they are supposed to
be installed in application directories, not in system32 or similar.

InnoSetup does have scripting (Pascal based) so code could be written to
scan the system and copy the dlls to the BitPim install dir, verifying
that the version is recent enough.

However gdiplus is the more pressing problem since we should switch to
newer wxPythons sooner than Python versions. I do have several versions
in the winsxs directory but that is for XP only - still a problem for
older operating systems. It is extremely likely that users will have to
download it but thankfully Microsoft have a URL for it unlike the vc71 dlls.

So is anyone going to volunteer to write some InnoSetup Pascal code that
does the following:

- - takes a filename and minimum version
- - looks to see if it is the bitpim install directory, and if so returns
- - searches the system for the filename and most recent version and
copies to the bitpim install dir, then returns
- - brings up a specified page in the online help (exec winhelp ?)

This all possibly needs its own page in InnoSetup to explain what is
happening as grovelling through the hard disk may take a while.

Roger

[Joe Pham]

Post by Roger Binns
We can freeze at current versions of Python and wxPython.

At least for the next release or two. We do want to sync up with the
latest wxPython releases, but the current wxPython that BitPim uses
is "good enough" for the immediate future.

Post by Roger Binns
We aren't allowed to include the DLLs as part of the installer, but
could make the installer download them in concert with the user from
the Microsoft web site.

That seems to be the best/safest approach.

Post by Roger Binns
And since VC2003 isn't even obtainable any more, I have no way of
compiling the extensions anyway.

One option is to stay with Python 2.3, and either ask Robin to do a
Windows 2.3 Unicode binary version of wxPython 2.8+, or compile it
ourselves (I will attempt to do just that). Otherwise, someone would
need to donate a copy of VC2003 to Roger to do the build.

-Joe Pham



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[Roger Binns]

Joe Pham wrote:
|> And since VC2003 isn't even obtainable any more, I have no way of
|> compiling the extensions anyway.
|
| One option is to stay with Python 2.3, and either ask Robin to do a
| Windows 2.3 Unicode binary version of wxPython 2.8+, or compile it
| ourselves (I will attempt to do just that).

You should be able to compile against Python 2.3 using MinGW.

Roger

[drew einhorn]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: drew einhorn <***@gmail.com>
Date: Dec 26, 2006 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: [BitPim-devel] Yet more Microsoft licensing issues

Post by Joe Pham
Otherwise, someone would
need to donate a copy of VC2003 to Roger to do the build.

I'm not sure, but I think in Microsoft's eyes

donation == piracy

Need to read the licenses very, very carefully to make sure this does
not trigger the Microsoft Software Gestapo.

Post by Joe Pham
-Joe Pham
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--
Drew Einhorn

[Roger Binns]

drew einhorn wrote:
| I'm not sure, but I think in Microsoft's eyes
|
| donation == piracy

There are specific mechanisms for transferring the software license from
one person to another in Microsoft's licenses.

| Need to read the licenses very, very carefully to make sure this does
| not trigger the Microsoft Software Gestapo.

The good news in this case is that VC 2003 was freely downloadable, well
the command line version I need anyway.

There has been extensive discussion of these issues in the various
Python mailing lists if anyone wants to read up about it. IMNSHO the
Python folks should have stuck to a compiler that has its dependencies
already installed everywhere or that are freely (in the freedom sense of
the word) redistributable.

Roger

[Roger Binns]

I just tried compiling Python 2.5 with MinGW. It almost works with
several minor headaches to work around. So I believe it should be
possible to have that work. I have no idea if wxPython can be built
with MinGW. I suspect it could, unless it has dependencies on MFC which
can only be built with MS compilers. Allegedly win32all cannot be built
with MinGW which would be a showstopper.

Roger