[BitPim-devel] Mac stuff

[Roger Binns]

Ok, so when was anyone on the Mac going to mention that the ringer and
wallpaper views looked hideous and that it had nothing whatsoever to do
with the watermarks, but was because the background is grey (or chrome
or whatever it is called). On Linux and Windows it is white. On the
Mac most windows have a white background so I don't know why my
subclass of wx.ScrolledWindow doesn't. I could just force it to white
on Mac but would rather do it "properly".

BTW You could also have mentioned the hideous toolbar!

I also tried to make py2app use -OO for the files - it will save a
considerable amount of space. Unfortunately py2app breaks if optimise
is turned on in any way.

I have upgraded my opinion of MacOS from user hostile to "tolerable to
use". It is like a somewhat more polished version of Gnome, but not
that much more. And it has all the annoyances of Windows (eg dumping
what would be drive letters on your desktop, trying to hide the
distinction between files, packages, executables and shortcuts) with
the amateurishness of Linux (crappy help, bizarre preference settings,
doing things in a non-obvious way), not to mention a spelling mistake
or two here and there (I'll be the kettle to that pot :-) The various
idiotic error messages that Windows gives now and then also have
counterparts in MacOS, as well as sporadic confirmation dialogs when
they aren't needed, and no confirmation/undo at all in other places (eg
many preference dialogs).

I was also amazed at just how primitive many of the apps are such as
Mail or the Browser. If I ever find out who decided that going to the
very beginning or end of the file/window/document was more common than
the beginning or end of the line and hence would map the home/end keys
that way ...

Ah well, enough ranting.

The Palm Desktop app is at version 4.2 on Mac and 4.1 on Windows which
goes a long way towards explaining why it behaves so differently.

Roger

[d***@netzero.com]

I assume the mini Mac came :-) Is it worth $499 in your opinion?


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[Roger Binns]

Post by d***@netzero.com
I assume the mini Mac came :-) Is it worth $499 in your opinion?

Operating systems by themselves are useless. It is all the software
on top that matters. Most operating systems come with Mailers and
Browsers which blurs the lines.

A base MacOS is no more useful than Linux or Windows and has a
similar number of quirks and limitations.

With Mac you get some extra apps bundled with your more expensive
machine (eg DVD, photo etc) with those apps being functional and
simple (that also means simple functionality).

So that ends up being a wash. On Windows there is a hurdle to
get over - making sure you don't get infected with viruses and
spyware. If you take that hurdle out of the way, I don't see
any appreciable difference between the operating systems.
And for some people that hurdle isn't a big deal, and for others
it makes their machines unusable.

For a power user, there is no advantage between Windows, Linux
and Mac. I use xemacs as my preferred editor and it is on
all 3. Developing BitPim is the same level of ease on all 3
and in most cases I am using exactly the same tools.

So I would say it is worth the same as a $500 machine running
Windows or Linux, with the exception of any packaged software
you may want. For example there are way more games for Windows,
and presumably more apps for Mac that can do detailed desktop
publishing.

Roger

[Steven Palm]

And it has all the annoyances of Windows (eg dumping what would be
drive letters on your desktop,

Easily turned off. In fact, this was turned off in the first versions
of MacOS X but user demand made them bring it back.

trying to hide the distinction between files, packages, executables
and shortcuts)

This is a perfect case of making it simple and manageable for people
who don't know any better and would break things, but it's easy to work
around if you know what you're doing. A ctrl-click on a package will
give you a "Show Package Contents" for example.

with the amateurishness of Linux (crappy help,

I haven't seen a good example of help yet on any system, IMNSHO.

bizarre preference settings, doing things in a non-obvious way),

Non-obvious to a geek or non-obvious to someone who knows nothing of
computers? I'm only qualified to judge one side of that, but as often
is the case the programmer or system designer's view of the "natural"
way to do something will only match up as natural with a subset of the
user base, you just hope to hit a larger subset on most functions.

various idiotic error messages that Windows gives now and then also
have counterparts in MacOS, as well as sporadic confirmation dialogs
when they aren't needed, and no confirmation/undo at all in other
places (eg many preference dialogs).

In the case of odd dialogs, I'd love to see your examples. I'd say
Windows is far and above the king of useless confirmation dialogs and
meaningless errors. Just curious which ones you are referring to.

I was also amazed at just how primitive many of the apps are such as
Mail or the Browser.

This is a different view of making programs for the users that cover
the basic functions, but don't overload you with tons of options and
obscure functions. You are always able to throw on other programs for
either of those functions that better suit your needs, these are meant
to be bare bones but yet functional starting points. For many people,
that's as far as they'll ever need to go.

If I ever find out who decided that going to the very beginning or
end of the file/window/document was more common than the beginning or
end of the line and hence would map the home/end keys that way ...

Most applications respect what I think are largely emacs bindings. I
didn't use emacs that much, so I don't remember. ^A and ^E go to
start/end of line for example. Ctrl-left/right arrow go to start/end
of line as well, and option-left/right arrow go to previous/next word.
(option is the ALT on a windows keyboard)

Ah well, enough ranting.

Not at all, it's interesting to see how your experience will progress
and as a system support person as well, it gives me better insight on
things other users may encounter that I gloss over.

[Roger Binns]

Post by Steven Palm

And it has all the annoyances of Windows (eg dumping what would be
drive letters on your desktop,

Easily turned off. In fact, this was turned off in the first versions
of MacOS X but user demand made them bring it back.

I would disagree with "easy". There is no right click menu item
nor anything in the finder menus nor anything in the help. Presumably
it is somewhere and easy once you know where just like various
things on Windows :-)

Post by Steven Palm

trying to hide the distinction between files, packages, executables
and shortcuts)

This is a perfect case of making it simple and manageable for people
who don't know any better and would break things, but it's easy to work
around if you know what you're doing. A ctrl-click on a package will
give you a "Show Package Contents" for example.

As an example I got bitten the first time I installed Firefox before
reblasting the machine. You end up with something on your desktop
labelled Firefox that when double clicked on produces another icon
with a Firefox label that produces a container with a Firefox icon
in it that can be dragged into a Finder window that has a Firefox
icon in it. I also dragged the Firefox icon to the dock. At that
point I tried deleting every single Firefox icon except the one
in the dock, since that is the only one I actually wanted.

Yes I understand it all now and did right after reblasting.

Post by Steven Palm

with the amateurishness of Linux (crappy help,

I haven't seen a good example of help yet on any system, IMNSHO.

In general the best help is the help you don't actually have to
use. In this case I wanted to access an Exchange server. I
had just configured Evolution on Linux to do that - it uses
Outlook Web Access behind the scenes. I noticed Apple Mail had
an 'Exchange' type. Try and work out from the help how to use
it. (eg it asks for the server in no less than 4 different
places)

The best help I have seen has been for some parts of Windows
but as you rightly point out, the bar wasn't set that high.
And then of course there was the help system I worked on
10 years ago at IXI ...

Post by Steven Palm
Non-obvious to a geek or non-obvious to someone who knows nothing of
computers?

The latter :-)

Post by Steven Palm
In the case of odd dialogs, I'd love to see your examples. I'd say
Windows is far and above the king of useless confirmation dialogs and
meaningless errors. Just curious which ones you are referring to.

Deleting files on a network drive, deleting a directory tree where
some of the files can't be deleted. I don't remember the specifics
of others since I kept reconfiguring things.

It really annoys when bringing up preferences for various things.
For some programs changes take effect immediately - there is no
cancel or undo preference changes and other programs require you
to apply, or bring up confirmation requests as you navigate away.

Post by Steven Palm

I was also amazed at just how primitive many of the apps are such as
Mail or the Browser.

This is a different view of making programs for the users that cover
the basic functions, but don't overload you with tons of options and
obscure functions.

Yes, and Windows and Linux do *exactly* the same thing with their
default mailers and browsers. The Mac ones definitely come last
in terms of functionality. I guess I also had my hopes high for
a mailer that actually understands IMAP properly. I keep trying
to find a good IMAP mailer on *any* operating system, and Outlook
Express is still it. (They need to understand that you use
multiple computers and that you use IMAP because you want everything
stored on the server).

Post by Steven Palm
Most applications respect what I think are largely emacs bindings. I
didn't use emacs that much, so I don't remember. ^A and ^E go to
start/end of line for example. Ctrl-left/right arrow go to start/end
of line as well, and option-left/right arrow go to previous/next word.
(option is the ALT on a windows keyboard)

The key mappings to a PC keyboard are horrible (which I didn't include
in my rant since the Mac has the right to do things the way it has
done historically).

In Windows and Linux, operations on items use the Control key.
eg Ctrl-C to copy, Ctrl-arrows to jump around words etc The
Alt key is used for bigger picture stuff and menu accelerator
keys.

Using Mac the Ctrl, Windows Key and Alt map to a completely different
class of functions than they do for Windows and Linux. Things no
longer become shortcuts if you have to try and think which of the
4 keys under your left thumb to press in order to do something.

I found some good discussion at this site:

http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/06/2310205

Post by Steven Palm
Not at all, it's interesting to see how your experience will progress
and as a system support person as well, it gives me better insight on
things other users may encounter that I gloss over.

I still haven't figured out how to really work well with lots of
windows. On Linux I use virtual desktops. On Windows I have a
dual screen setup and the taskbar works really well. On Mac the
dock doesn't really do it for me. For example if I have two
terminal windows open, I want to select them individually. I
also tried a virtual desktop program, but it wouldn't let me
move windows around by dragging them in the panner. So I'll
keep trying things until I find something that works.

Roger

[Adit Panchal]

Post by Roger Binns
BTW You could also have mentioned the hideous toolbar!

I am trying to work on that somewhat. I got the override of
wx.ArtProvider working, but there is a problem that I noticed when the
toolbar is created. When you set the bitmap size to say, 32x32, the
size reported to the overridden function is actually 36x36. The only
way around this is setting the image size to 28x28 and the size
reported to the function is 32x32. Anyways, my images look hopeless in
either case. I tried PNG, XPM, and BMP and they all look bad. They look
reasonable on my Windows box although I have issues with transparency.

Post by Roger Binns
I still haven't figured out how to really work well with lots of
windows. On Linux I use virtual desktops. On Windows I have a
dual screen setup and the taskbar works really well. On Mac the
dock doesn't really do it for me. For example if I have two
terminal windows open, I want to select them individually. I
also tried a virtual desktop program, but it wouldn't let me
move windows around by dragging them in the panner. So I'll
keep trying things until I find something that works.

Have you tried using Expose? I think the commands are usually bound to
F8, F9, and F10. I usually have my bottom left desktop hot corner set
to show all windows, and the bottom right one set to show the desktop.
I started using it once I got my Mac, and I find that I make the
gestures even on my Windows box.

If you don't like the way it works, there are virtual desktop managers
for OS X: http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/ and
http://virtuedesktops.sourceforge.net/

Adit

[Roger Binns]

Post by Adit Panchal

Post by Roger Binns
BTW You could also have mentioned the hideous toolbar!

I am trying to work on that somewhat.

The symptoms anyway :-)

Post by Adit Panchal
I tried PNG, XPM, and BMP and they all look bad. They look reasonable
on my Windows box although I have issues with transparency.

With PNG make sure you have a single colour set as transparent, rather
than having an alpha channel.

Post by Adit Panchal
Have you tried using Expose?

Yes, I do have it. I can't quite make my mind up which corner to use.

Post by Adit Panchal
If you don't like the way it works, there are virtual desktop managers
for OS X: http://wsmanager.sourceforge.net/ and
http://virtuedesktops.sourceforge.net/

wsmanager is what I had already tried. virtue is way nicer, but still
suffers from being unable to simply let you move windows around. For
example I have a terminal window. If I am following some instructions
in a web page then I'll move it to the room with the browser in. Then
I may move it back to the one where my editor is. On all the panners I
have ever used on any other operating system, you can just drag the
windows in the panner. wsmanager lets you drag it, but not outside of
the current room. virtue just lets you drag the entire room, but none
of the contents.

I am having real issue with keyboards. I have a USB Logitech keyboard
and have tried 3 different KVMs which give varying combinations of
Windows and Mac being confused.

Roger

[Roger Binns]

Post by Steven Palm
In the case of odd dialogs, I'd love to see your examples. I'd say
Windows is far and above the king of useless confirmation dialogs and
meaningless errors. Just curious which ones you are referring to.

Here is another one. When going to install a software package
(which contains files I am going to execute), I usually get
asked if a program that comes with the package can be run
to see if the package should be installed.

Why exactly would I trust a package enough to want to install
it, but not trust any pre-installation checks it has?

Unix SVR4 packages do this as well. They even point out the
pre-install checks will be run as root. This is all one of
those security pretense things. Either the entire package
is good or not. Under what circumstances would I be fearful
of running the pre-installation checks it includes and not
the contents it later installs.

Roger